![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
hafitalThis is probably tantamount to poking a large untethered wild animal with a pointy stick. Sometimes I'm fearless! *poke poke*. And, uh, I don't think my flist is that into Doctor Who anyway. *g*
Also, I confess that I've largely recoiled away from most Doctor Who communities. Plus I'm late to the party (as usual), so my impression of things in the fandom might be off. Feel free to correct me, I suppose. Also, people might be long past discussing this, which I totally understand.
This post is in large part a kneejerk reaction. I confess that it is, but I can't help it. After years in fandom when each time I find myself enchanted with a female character I find that she is then roundly slagged by fans... well, it gets a little tiring. I'm sort of over it. I'm just done. I'm over judging women. Even fictional women. Even fictional women written by men. It's tiring. I'm exhausted!
And just to say at the start, I do not consider myself a Doctor/Rose 'shiper. Seriously not at all. I don't think you can 'ship (in the TrueLoveForever! sort of way) the Doctor with anyone, personally. If I were into Doctor/Rose, which I can't even wrap my head around, I think it would work better with Nine/Rose, however Ten/Rose is where all of the interesting things happen, imo, and yet everyone is "no ten/rose" and I'm like buh? Anyway, more on that later.
Honestly, I sort of just want to know the lay of the land so I can navigate appropriately. I'm not trying to be accusatory.
I've tried to come up with reasons for so many disliking Rose, none of which make me feel any better.
I feel like Rose is somehow blamed for the Doctor being the one who is unable to let go. In the final scene of Doomsday, it's the Doctor who burns a sun to say good-bye, not Rose, but it somehow reflects badly on her. Which, huh?
Or is it because she is emotional and a tad devastated? Is it because it reads as needy? Does that make people uncomfortable or annoyed? Rose has messy emotions. She's all heart, that girl, and feels things strongly, and sometimes it gets her into trouble, all things I love about her. IMO most of her emotional distress is over thinking the Doctor needs her, which may or may not be correct. I think Nine probably needed her. Ten, not as much, but at that point the relationship turns rather co-dependant, which maybe people don't like? I love it. I think it's great. I love all of these messy, unbalanced, doomed relationships, especially with the Doctor who is not human and doesn't respond like a human. But maybe people don't care for it? As traumatic as it was, I'm really glad that they were forced to part "forever" because otherwise I'm not sure if either of them could have broken it off. They were headed for doomed.
I've seen one or two comments that some didn't like how Doomsday ended because it seems as if Rose can't get over the Doctor or something even though she has her whole family, etc etc. I didn't read the scene the same way, largely because the Doctor and Rose's time together ended so traumatically, like severing a limb, I think a bit of devastation is in order. They both, the Doctor and Rose, have blunted ends. Honestly I think back to when I was 20 and had a break up with a stupid boy and cried for a month over him. Hand to God, no lie, a month. And the stupid boy was no where near as interesting as the Doctor! But you think your life is over, you walk around in a numb shock, you get up every day, and eventually you get over it. And I saw no indication that Rose wasn't perfectly normal in all this. She's the normal one! The Doctor's the one that's all screwy in the head. (and don't get me wrong. I love it all! I love him fucked up.)
I think there's a valid criticism of Doomsday to say that it should have ended with both of them parted at the wall, instead of having the good-bye scene. Partly because the performances were very good, and the emotions poignant and completely real and it's gorgeously shot. Ironically, I think part of the intentions with showing the good-bye scene was to show that Rose has her friends and family with her, supported, and a great job at Torchwood which she even teases the Doctor about, and that she's going to be perfectly fine, but it seems many reacted badly to it. Or maybe I'm wrong? I think also so writers like that sort of thing. It's hard not indulge in tearful good-byes.
Is it that she has the audacity to have feelings for the Doctor and maybe hoping for something else? Yeah, she's gaga over him, and it only gets worse the longer she was with him. There were things I didn't like about School Reunion, but the relationship stuff wasn't it. I've seen more than one complaint about Rose thinking she's special, which a) is missing the point of the episode, and b) what is wrong with thinking you're special? When Sarah Jane shows up and Rose starts putting two and two together, it's not the realization that there have been others that upsets her (or it's not that entirely) or realizing that she's not special, it's that none of them are. That's the freaky part. He's never, not once, mentioned Sarah Jane and he obviously was close to her, so what does that mean for her? And what else is he not telling her? She hasn't had the benefit of seeing him with others the way we have, she can only respond to what he's told her (not much), and what she feels and intuits, and what she's gone though with him. That's why she asks Sarah Jane if she should stay with him at the end, a moment that I absolutely love. And yet, somehow she's wrong for all of this? Really? He isn't upfront with Rose or with Martha or Donna or any of them. Anyway, I'm not going to get into the fact that she, or any woman for that matter, has every right to feel special regardless of the past history of their partner (sexual or otherwise) or I'll fly off into a frothy rage.
Maybe it's just Ten/Rose people don't like? But that bleeds over to Rose. At least, that's what I'm sensing. Which, I rather like Ten/Rose, doomed though it is. :(
Also, is there some kind of, I dunno, jealousy between Nine and Ten, with regards to Rose? This really blows my mind. I don't know how that works!
Do people dislike Rose because of the Doctor/Rose 'shipers? Of whom I gather are as rabid as 'shipers tend to be. It's been a long time since I've been anywhere near a fandom with pairing wars. :/ But, you know, most of the worst of these have neon signs over them with "Doctor/Rose 4EVAR!1!1!" blinking on and off, and thus are easy to avoid. Although I actually totally understand being driven to hate by this and how that sours your feelings for a character. It's annoying to feel like you're being peppered with a pairing you don't like or that makes you uncomfortable.
Or is this a larger Classic Who vs. New Who thing? Maybe it's all of the above.
Also I take it there's a fair amount of dislike for RTD vis a vis Rose, of whom I have absolutely no opinion of one way or the other. Is this from interviews and stuff? I mean, has he said Rose is the best companion ever and everyone else is just a substitute? Or does this come from Rose being popular among viewers and thus the writers choose to cater to that? Or is this assumed from the episodes themselves? Is the show really slanted toward Rose? I'm so not getting that, but maybe I'm wrong. The realities of actors being available and not available and long term plans and such just don't let me think that.
And you know what, show running's hard, and you have to satisfiy a ton a people which is never going to happen, so they just do the best they can which ultimatley is never going to be enough.
None of this is to indicate that I love Rose any more or less than I love Martha (made entirely of awesome and then some), or any more or less than I love Donna even with all of S4 still ahead of us (or even Astrid). I better not have to choose or I'm going to be really upset! *g* Although maybe I should choose Alonso?? :D Doctor/Alonso. He can cry out allon-sy Alonso at the critical moment... bwah. (omg if there's Doctor/Alonso show me where right now.)
But let's talk about Martha for a bit. I can see that it's a tad sore there, the Doctor/Rose and the Doctor/Martha otpers rising up against each other. I wish it were not so, and I really must be completely stupid since I wouldn't even have assumed any such strife existed when I was just watching in a vacuum, since the thought of shipping the Doctor with anyone seems strange and weird to me, and both Rose and Martha are so different. Meaning, I can go there with any of them, but the Doctor does not do domestic. Not without materially changing what makes him the Doctor. So, yeah, honestly I was totally blindsided by all of this. But at the same time the show totally plays into that Rose vs. Martha thing, which is unfortunate because I think what's going on is much more interesting than anything petty and stupid like that.
There's a surface reading of S3 and the Doctor/Martha relationship that reads very much like he's kind of oblivious to Martha fancying him, rather callously bringing up Rose like a really bad date when the guy spends all night long talking about his ex-girlfriend. :D (which would account for a large backlash against Rose, but hello! um, get mad at the Doctor! why get mad at Rose who is, really, in the same boat as Martha?? sisterhood, people!)
In actuality, I don't buy that. I've come to believe the Doctor is a master (hah!) manipulator and he's not oblivious at all and knows exactly what he's doing. The fact of the matter is that Martha is not Rose, they are at different points in thier lives when they meet the Doctor, Martha's got entirely too much going for her to flit it away with something as deadend as the Doctor, the Doctor knows that but can't help himself or justifies it by the fact that it's a once in a lifetime experience for her, but he keeps her at bay pretty much throughout S3, which also, started off with a kiss, so it's like backwards, going the other direction. It's kind of fabulous, actually, if you want my opinion, and it's even more awesome that Martha figures it out, comes to realize it for herself, and she makes the right choice and leaves before she gets herself so far entangled into the Doctor that she couldn't come out whole.
Have I mentioned how much I love the Doctor? Particularly because he's totally fucked up. I mean, it's great. I love it. Doctor, how are you so fucked up and still completely awesome? Come over here so I can feed you cookies.
And really, is there any doubt that Martha's the better person? I mean, seriously. The best moment is that final scene in the TARDIS at the end of TLotTL not just because she tells it like it is, but because its obvious (well obvious to ME, and I'm always right... ;)) that the Doctor totally knows it. It's mostly that scene that tells me he's known it all along.
I gotta tell you, I'm totally excited for Donna. :D :D With Rose, Martha, and Donna, we have three totally different, totally awesome women! Maybe there will be less fandom angst over Rose (one can only hope).
And yes, I know about S4 casting spoilers. This is where I remind myself that I'm in a live fandom and I'm just going to have roll with it. *g* The other day when I was thinking of all of this, I made a comparison (in my head, I was talking to myself, as you do) and thinking of how I (we) are playing with other people's toys. TPTB can and do play rough! They chew on their toys, throw them in the air, set them on fire, give 'em to the dog to slobber all over, and we're here all facepalm and cringing. And there's nothing we can do about it! hah. With Torchwood it's like they take a hammer and smash all of their toys up into little bits and I'm like, well, if that's what you want to do I guess I can't stop you, but OMG NO SMASHING IANTO or Rhys. With DW, I'm less concerned just because of the nature of the show. I mean, bad irreversible shit can happen, too, but it's in essence a happier show. And thank goodness. bwah.
Okay, I feel better for getting all of that off my chest. So, in conclusion, companions for the win!
And now I mewl pathetically for recommendations. Gimmeeee. *makes grabby hands* I still can't really read yet. (and no I haven’t' been reading already.... I really haven't! okay maybe I have but only short shorts....mostly. ) I'm not free of the thesis until April (SOB) but I kinda can't help myself so let me have 'em. Any pairing at all, I want them all (and hell yes I want Ten/Rose, but not shippy, unless it's really good, then yes. LOL.). Even Classic Who, although those I'll have to save until I've seen more. I'm good with angsty and dark but also happy, healthy, and whole. Particularly stories in character that DO NOT disparage or belittle any of the companions, but in particular Rose who I think ends up being belittled or written meanly a lot and quite frankly I just can't deal with that. Adult or not, either way. I'll read anything if it's good. :D :D
Also, I confess that I've largely recoiled away from most Doctor Who communities. Plus I'm late to the party (as usual), so my impression of things in the fandom might be off. Feel free to correct me, I suppose. Also, people might be long past discussing this, which I totally understand.
This post is in large part a kneejerk reaction. I confess that it is, but I can't help it. After years in fandom when each time I find myself enchanted with a female character I find that she is then roundly slagged by fans... well, it gets a little tiring. I'm sort of over it. I'm just done. I'm over judging women. Even fictional women. Even fictional women written by men. It's tiring. I'm exhausted!
And just to say at the start, I do not consider myself a Doctor/Rose 'shiper. Seriously not at all. I don't think you can 'ship (in the TrueLoveForever! sort of way) the Doctor with anyone, personally. If I were into Doctor/Rose, which I can't even wrap my head around, I think it would work better with Nine/Rose, however Ten/Rose is where all of the interesting things happen, imo, and yet everyone is "no ten/rose" and I'm like buh? Anyway, more on that later.
Honestly, I sort of just want to know the lay of the land so I can navigate appropriately. I'm not trying to be accusatory.
I've tried to come up with reasons for so many disliking Rose, none of which make me feel any better.
I feel like Rose is somehow blamed for the Doctor being the one who is unable to let go. In the final scene of Doomsday, it's the Doctor who burns a sun to say good-bye, not Rose, but it somehow reflects badly on her. Which, huh?
Or is it because she is emotional and a tad devastated? Is it because it reads as needy? Does that make people uncomfortable or annoyed? Rose has messy emotions. She's all heart, that girl, and feels things strongly, and sometimes it gets her into trouble, all things I love about her. IMO most of her emotional distress is over thinking the Doctor needs her, which may or may not be correct. I think Nine probably needed her. Ten, not as much, but at that point the relationship turns rather co-dependant, which maybe people don't like? I love it. I think it's great. I love all of these messy, unbalanced, doomed relationships, especially with the Doctor who is not human and doesn't respond like a human. But maybe people don't care for it? As traumatic as it was, I'm really glad that they were forced to part "forever" because otherwise I'm not sure if either of them could have broken it off. They were headed for doomed.
I've seen one or two comments that some didn't like how Doomsday ended because it seems as if Rose can't get over the Doctor or something even though she has her whole family, etc etc. I didn't read the scene the same way, largely because the Doctor and Rose's time together ended so traumatically, like severing a limb, I think a bit of devastation is in order. They both, the Doctor and Rose, have blunted ends. Honestly I think back to when I was 20 and had a break up with a stupid boy and cried for a month over him. Hand to God, no lie, a month. And the stupid boy was no where near as interesting as the Doctor! But you think your life is over, you walk around in a numb shock, you get up every day, and eventually you get over it. And I saw no indication that Rose wasn't perfectly normal in all this. She's the normal one! The Doctor's the one that's all screwy in the head. (and don't get me wrong. I love it all! I love him fucked up.)
I think there's a valid criticism of Doomsday to say that it should have ended with both of them parted at the wall, instead of having the good-bye scene. Partly because the performances were very good, and the emotions poignant and completely real and it's gorgeously shot. Ironically, I think part of the intentions with showing the good-bye scene was to show that Rose has her friends and family with her, supported, and a great job at Torchwood which she even teases the Doctor about, and that she's going to be perfectly fine, but it seems many reacted badly to it. Or maybe I'm wrong? I think also so writers like that sort of thing. It's hard not indulge in tearful good-byes.
Is it that she has the audacity to have feelings for the Doctor and maybe hoping for something else? Yeah, she's gaga over him, and it only gets worse the longer she was with him. There were things I didn't like about School Reunion, but the relationship stuff wasn't it. I've seen more than one complaint about Rose thinking she's special, which a) is missing the point of the episode, and b) what is wrong with thinking you're special? When Sarah Jane shows up and Rose starts putting two and two together, it's not the realization that there have been others that upsets her (or it's not that entirely) or realizing that she's not special, it's that none of them are. That's the freaky part. He's never, not once, mentioned Sarah Jane and he obviously was close to her, so what does that mean for her? And what else is he not telling her? She hasn't had the benefit of seeing him with others the way we have, she can only respond to what he's told her (not much), and what she feels and intuits, and what she's gone though with him. That's why she asks Sarah Jane if she should stay with him at the end, a moment that I absolutely love. And yet, somehow she's wrong for all of this? Really? He isn't upfront with Rose or with Martha or Donna or any of them. Anyway, I'm not going to get into the fact that she, or any woman for that matter, has every right to feel special regardless of the past history of their partner (sexual or otherwise) or I'll fly off into a frothy rage.
Maybe it's just Ten/Rose people don't like? But that bleeds over to Rose. At least, that's what I'm sensing. Which, I rather like Ten/Rose, doomed though it is. :(
Also, is there some kind of, I dunno, jealousy between Nine and Ten, with regards to Rose? This really blows my mind. I don't know how that works!
Do people dislike Rose because of the Doctor/Rose 'shipers? Of whom I gather are as rabid as 'shipers tend to be. It's been a long time since I've been anywhere near a fandom with pairing wars. :/ But, you know, most of the worst of these have neon signs over them with "Doctor/Rose 4EVAR!1!1!" blinking on and off, and thus are easy to avoid. Although I actually totally understand being driven to hate by this and how that sours your feelings for a character. It's annoying to feel like you're being peppered with a pairing you don't like or that makes you uncomfortable.
Or is this a larger Classic Who vs. New Who thing? Maybe it's all of the above.
Also I take it there's a fair amount of dislike for RTD vis a vis Rose, of whom I have absolutely no opinion of one way or the other. Is this from interviews and stuff? I mean, has he said Rose is the best companion ever and everyone else is just a substitute? Or does this come from Rose being popular among viewers and thus the writers choose to cater to that? Or is this assumed from the episodes themselves? Is the show really slanted toward Rose? I'm so not getting that, but maybe I'm wrong. The realities of actors being available and not available and long term plans and such just don't let me think that.
And you know what, show running's hard, and you have to satisfiy a ton a people which is never going to happen, so they just do the best they can which ultimatley is never going to be enough.
None of this is to indicate that I love Rose any more or less than I love Martha (made entirely of awesome and then some), or any more or less than I love Donna even with all of S4 still ahead of us (or even Astrid). I better not have to choose or I'm going to be really upset! *g* Although maybe I should choose Alonso?? :D Doctor/Alonso. He can cry out allon-sy Alonso at the critical moment... bwah. (omg if there's Doctor/Alonso show me where right now.)
But let's talk about Martha for a bit. I can see that it's a tad sore there, the Doctor/Rose and the Doctor/Martha otpers rising up against each other. I wish it were not so, and I really must be completely stupid since I wouldn't even have assumed any such strife existed when I was just watching in a vacuum, since the thought of shipping the Doctor with anyone seems strange and weird to me, and both Rose and Martha are so different. Meaning, I can go there with any of them, but the Doctor does not do domestic. Not without materially changing what makes him the Doctor. So, yeah, honestly I was totally blindsided by all of this. But at the same time the show totally plays into that Rose vs. Martha thing, which is unfortunate because I think what's going on is much more interesting than anything petty and stupid like that.
There's a surface reading of S3 and the Doctor/Martha relationship that reads very much like he's kind of oblivious to Martha fancying him, rather callously bringing up Rose like a really bad date when the guy spends all night long talking about his ex-girlfriend. :D (which would account for a large backlash against Rose, but hello! um, get mad at the Doctor! why get mad at Rose who is, really, in the same boat as Martha?? sisterhood, people!)
In actuality, I don't buy that. I've come to believe the Doctor is a master (hah!) manipulator and he's not oblivious at all and knows exactly what he's doing. The fact of the matter is that Martha is not Rose, they are at different points in thier lives when they meet the Doctor, Martha's got entirely too much going for her to flit it away with something as deadend as the Doctor, the Doctor knows that but can't help himself or justifies it by the fact that it's a once in a lifetime experience for her, but he keeps her at bay pretty much throughout S3, which also, started off with a kiss, so it's like backwards, going the other direction. It's kind of fabulous, actually, if you want my opinion, and it's even more awesome that Martha figures it out, comes to realize it for herself, and she makes the right choice and leaves before she gets herself so far entangled into the Doctor that she couldn't come out whole.
Have I mentioned how much I love the Doctor? Particularly because he's totally fucked up. I mean, it's great. I love it. Doctor, how are you so fucked up and still completely awesome? Come over here so I can feed you cookies.
And really, is there any doubt that Martha's the better person? I mean, seriously. The best moment is that final scene in the TARDIS at the end of TLotTL not just because she tells it like it is, but because its obvious (well obvious to ME, and I'm always right... ;)) that the Doctor totally knows it. It's mostly that scene that tells me he's known it all along.
I gotta tell you, I'm totally excited for Donna. :D :D With Rose, Martha, and Donna, we have three totally different, totally awesome women! Maybe there will be less fandom angst over Rose (one can only hope).
And yes, I know about S4 casting spoilers. This is where I remind myself that I'm in a live fandom and I'm just going to have roll with it. *g* The other day when I was thinking of all of this, I made a comparison (in my head, I was talking to myself, as you do) and thinking of how I (we) are playing with other people's toys. TPTB can and do play rough! They chew on their toys, throw them in the air, set them on fire, give 'em to the dog to slobber all over, and we're here all facepalm and cringing. And there's nothing we can do about it! hah. With Torchwood it's like they take a hammer and smash all of their toys up into little bits and I'm like, well, if that's what you want to do I guess I can't stop you, but OMG NO SMASHING IANTO or Rhys. With DW, I'm less concerned just because of the nature of the show. I mean, bad irreversible shit can happen, too, but it's in essence a happier show. And thank goodness. bwah.
Okay, I feel better for getting all of that off my chest. So, in conclusion, companions for the win!
And now I mewl pathetically for recommendations. Gimmeeee. *makes grabby hands* I still can't really read yet. (and no I haven’t' been reading already.... I really haven't! okay maybe I have but only short shorts....mostly. ) I'm not free of the thesis until April (SOB) but I kinda can't help myself so let me have 'em. Any pairing at all, I want them all (and hell yes I want Ten/Rose, but not shippy, unless it's really good, then yes. LOL.). Even Classic Who, although those I'll have to save until I've seen more. I'm good with angsty and dark but also happy, healthy, and whole. Particularly stories in character that DO NOT disparage or belittle any of the companions, but in particular Rose who I think ends up being belittled or written meanly a lot and quite frankly I just can't deal with that. Adult or not, either way. I'll read anything if it's good. :D :D
