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hafitalVague subject title is vague to avoid spoilers
This is me, tinkering with the time travel plot device in Endgame. I started thinking, it's easier to list what we know then trying to figure out what we don't know. This is not a definitive list, and is mostly to help me keep things, er, straight...straightish. Feel free to add anything in comments I missed.
Things we know....more or less:
~ We know they cannot go back in time and kill baby Thanos
~ We know Nebula killed her past self and it did not affect her present self
~ We know the team can go into the past and take the stones, mjolnir, pym particles, a glove, etc, and return to the present with those items in their hands
~ We know they cannot go back in time and destroy the stones back then. That's like killing baby Thanos
~ We know Tilda told Bruce she can't give him the time stone because it would then leave her reality, her timeline, vulnerable to the forces of evil or whatever while saving his timeline, and she's not wrong because in 5 or 6 years Dr. Strange uses the time stone to stop Dormammu, who is arguably worse than Thanos, in terms of destroying the universe
~ We know she gives it to him anyway when they realize Dr. Strange gave it to Thanos for a reason. Bruce says either Dr Strange made a mistake, and then she says, "or I did." I'm fascinated by this conversation, because I can't pin down where her mistake is. But the result is she gives Bruce the time stone, counting on him to return it. This is really important because I get the feeling that if Dormammu eats the universe or whatever it would be bad for all timelines
~ We know they can return the items they took back to when they took it. This is where my brain begins to melt because i have a hard time figuring out how you return an item in an alternate timeline from the one you're in (since taking the item created the alternate time) but then I realized I was looking at it from the wrong side. Steve has to go back (in his timeline) to the point where the item was still there and wait to return it as close to the exact moment as when it left, thereby "clipping the branch"
~ We know this then means for every scene we saw in Endgame where they took a stone from the past, there's probably a Steve Rogers also there with them but hidden ready to return the stones. It would have to be as close to the exact moment that they took the stones. For personal reasons, the thought of Steve sneaking around Asgard is really making me laugh. Also this means that in NYC 2012 there are at least THREE STEVES RUNNING AROUND WHAT. Three separate america's asses hahaha. That joke works on so many levels
~ We know that if there are 3 Steve Rogers, then he (and anyone else doing this also) can retread over the same time how ever many times he needs to.... not that he or anyone else would do that more than necessary, but it means Steve's always going forward in his own personal timeline no matter how many times he goes back to 2012
~ We know these events (the taking of the stones, mjolnir, etc) still create alternate timelines, but less gruesome I guess. We know this because Steve (and everyone else) already lived through a time where Dr. Strange defeated Dormammu, so Steve returning to the point to give the time stone back to Tilda is helping past Tilda's alternative timeline, and not affecting anything in Steve's (and the OG6) timeline because he already lived it
~ We know you can go into the future, because Thanos did it with his ship to "rain fire" on everyone. This means there's an alternate timeline for everyone else where Thanos never got the stones, because he jumped out of that time and popped into the OG6's time to fulfill his destiny, and he doesn't return because he's killed. Talk about entanglement, jeez. I don't think that's something Steve can fix when he's on his solo mission to prune branches and return things to the past, and would he want to, anyway? But who knows what kind of wackiness exists in that timeline, in a world from 2014 where Thanos just ceases to exist
~ Neither can he fix Loki taking the space stone from 2012, so there's that alternate timeline. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if Disney is really making a Loki tv show then this is the alternate timeline for that tv show. Presumably, the events of this Loki Timeline will mirror in some way what happens in the O6 timeline but differently, because alternate, so they can just rewrite everything or create whole new adventures and shenanigans
~ We know Steve and Tony could go from 2012 to 1970 and then from 1970 back to their present without returning to the platform in between, so you can shrink down into the quantum realm and pop back up again whereever the time gps wristband is programmed to push you out in, as long as you have enough pym particles. I'm guessing going quantum uses more particles than just shrinking small and enlarging big in the regular realm
~ We know Scott tells Steve and Tony if they don't succeed in 1970 in retrieving more pym particles along with the space stone, that's it, they're not coming back
~ We know this also means Steve can hop all around time returning the stones without returning to his present, until he's ready to do so. Sam asks how long is it going to take and Bruce says "for him, as long as it takes. For us, five seconds"
~ We know, after they complete their missions, the wrist band takes the team back to their present. And it takes Alt Nebula back as well, with them. It appears that they trigger that somehow, when they're done with their mission. Tapping the gps wrist band. The fact that they all arrive on the platform at the same time does supports the theory that no matter how long it takes in the past, it's a fixed time for return...unless you're steve rogers lol (aside: I realized on second viewing that I don't think they leave anyone behind to monitor the chrono ship while they're on the time heist. that is flat out terrifying to me!)
~ We know Steve "blew past his timestamp"
~ We know Steve -- for the sake of this list and my melting brain, and without evidence to the contrary, I'm going to say it's the OG6 Steve -- returned to his present without popping onto the platform.
~ We know Steve chose to remain in some alternate timeline for a long period, and that he lived "some of that life Tony's always telling me to get" and that he was married, since he's wearing a wedding ring. To whom he was married to and for how long and what happened we don't know, because he doesn't say. All Steve says is "it was beautiful" and "no I don't think I will" when Sam asks if he wants to talk about her. (Sam assumes it's a her... it could be a he or a they! or anything really) eta: obviously we see Steve and Peggy dancing -- it still doesn't tell us more than that.
~ We know Steve took a shield from some timeline that presumably didn't need it, so he could give it to Sam <3
Things we don't know:
~ We don't know how Steve blew past his "timestamp." My current theory is he removed the pym particles from his suit. Since we know Scott tells Steve and Tony they can't return without it
~ We don't know how Steve gets on that bench. I had assumed he lived out his life until time caught up with him, but he's in an alternate time line from the OG6 one so that can't be the case, not entirely at least. He must have returned to his timeline some time prior to that moment, and then snuck onto the bench. It could have been any moment, really, since (if everything above on this list is correct) we know there can be any number of Steve Rogers existing in 2023 simultaneously.
~ We don't know if Gamora sticks around in 2023 or not.... I'm gonna assume they're keeping the character for GotG movies, but Quill may have to work hard to convince her to date him again because the Gamora that knew him died. Good luck, buddy
~ We don't know if Time Traveler Steve, and the quantum realm, gives him access to more than his timeline. Can he visit these alternate timelines? Why would he want to for other than fic writing purposes lol?
~ We don't know how much pym particles Steve has for his solo mission (although presumably he could get more!) A finite amount, I would assume
Brain melting time:
How did Steve get on that bench....
My current theory is that Steve Rogers on the bench is still "a man out of time," because he blew past his timestamp. Returning to that moment to give Sam the shield was his final mission. This means (I think, if I'm even remotely right) that he removed the pym particles from his suit in 2023. So he could have his dramatic moment on the bench, waiting for Sam, rather than popping onto the platform. And.... if that's the case.... is it still an alternate timeline?? It might not be. But it also might be. I mean.... that means that that whole scene on the bench is in an alternate timeline and not the actual OG6 present...maybe....*brain explodes*
This is me, tinkering with the time travel plot device in Endgame. I started thinking, it's easier to list what we know then trying to figure out what we don't know. This is not a definitive list, and is mostly to help me keep things, er, straight...straightish. Feel free to add anything in comments I missed.
Things we know....more or less:
~ We know they cannot go back in time and kill baby Thanos
~ We know Nebula killed her past self and it did not affect her present self
~ We know the team can go into the past and take the stones, mjolnir, pym particles, a glove, etc, and return to the present with those items in their hands
~ We know they cannot go back in time and destroy the stones back then. That's like killing baby Thanos
~ We know Tilda told Bruce she can't give him the time stone because it would then leave her reality, her timeline, vulnerable to the forces of evil or whatever while saving his timeline, and she's not wrong because in 5 or 6 years Dr. Strange uses the time stone to stop Dormammu, who is arguably worse than Thanos, in terms of destroying the universe
~ We know she gives it to him anyway when they realize Dr. Strange gave it to Thanos for a reason. Bruce says either Dr Strange made a mistake, and then she says, "or I did." I'm fascinated by this conversation, because I can't pin down where her mistake is. But the result is she gives Bruce the time stone, counting on him to return it. This is really important because I get the feeling that if Dormammu eats the universe or whatever it would be bad for all timelines
~ We know they can return the items they took back to when they took it. This is where my brain begins to melt because i have a hard time figuring out how you return an item in an alternate timeline from the one you're in (since taking the item created the alternate time) but then I realized I was looking at it from the wrong side. Steve has to go back (in his timeline) to the point where the item was still there and wait to return it as close to the exact moment as when it left, thereby "clipping the branch"
~ We know this then means for every scene we saw in Endgame where they took a stone from the past, there's probably a Steve Rogers also there with them but hidden ready to return the stones. It would have to be as close to the exact moment that they took the stones. For personal reasons, the thought of Steve sneaking around Asgard is really making me laugh. Also this means that in NYC 2012 there are at least THREE STEVES RUNNING AROUND WHAT. Three separate america's asses hahaha. That joke works on so many levels
~ We know that if there are 3 Steve Rogers, then he (and anyone else doing this also) can retread over the same time how ever many times he needs to.... not that he or anyone else would do that more than necessary, but it means Steve's always going forward in his own personal timeline no matter how many times he goes back to 2012
~ We know these events (the taking of the stones, mjolnir, etc) still create alternate timelines, but less gruesome I guess. We know this because Steve (and everyone else) already lived through a time where Dr. Strange defeated Dormammu, so Steve returning to the point to give the time stone back to Tilda is helping past Tilda's alternative timeline, and not affecting anything in Steve's (and the OG6) timeline because he already lived it
~ We know you can go into the future, because Thanos did it with his ship to "rain fire" on everyone. This means there's an alternate timeline for everyone else where Thanos never got the stones, because he jumped out of that time and popped into the OG6's time to fulfill his destiny, and he doesn't return because he's killed. Talk about entanglement, jeez. I don't think that's something Steve can fix when he's on his solo mission to prune branches and return things to the past, and would he want to, anyway? But who knows what kind of wackiness exists in that timeline, in a world from 2014 where Thanos just ceases to exist
~ Neither can he fix Loki taking the space stone from 2012, so there's that alternate timeline. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if Disney is really making a Loki tv show then this is the alternate timeline for that tv show. Presumably, the events of this Loki Timeline will mirror in some way what happens in the O6 timeline but differently, because alternate, so they can just rewrite everything or create whole new adventures and shenanigans
~ We know Steve and Tony could go from 2012 to 1970 and then from 1970 back to their present without returning to the platform in between, so you can shrink down into the quantum realm and pop back up again whereever the time gps wristband is programmed to push you out in, as long as you have enough pym particles. I'm guessing going quantum uses more particles than just shrinking small and enlarging big in the regular realm
~ We know Scott tells Steve and Tony if they don't succeed in 1970 in retrieving more pym particles along with the space stone, that's it, they're not coming back
~ We know this also means Steve can hop all around time returning the stones without returning to his present, until he's ready to do so. Sam asks how long is it going to take and Bruce says "for him, as long as it takes. For us, five seconds"
~ We know, after they complete their missions, the wrist band takes the team back to their present. And it takes Alt Nebula back as well, with them. It appears that they trigger that somehow, when they're done with their mission. Tapping the gps wrist band. The fact that they all arrive on the platform at the same time does supports the theory that no matter how long it takes in the past, it's a fixed time for return...unless you're steve rogers lol (aside: I realized on second viewing that I don't think they leave anyone behind to monitor the chrono ship while they're on the time heist. that is flat out terrifying to me!)
~ We know Steve "blew past his timestamp"
~ We know Steve -- for the sake of this list and my melting brain, and without evidence to the contrary, I'm going to say it's the OG6 Steve -- returned to his present without popping onto the platform.
~ We know Steve chose to remain in some alternate timeline for a long period, and that he lived "some of that life Tony's always telling me to get" and that he was married, since he's wearing a wedding ring. To whom he was married to and for how long and what happened we don't know, because he doesn't say. All Steve says is "it was beautiful" and "no I don't think I will" when Sam asks if he wants to talk about her. (Sam assumes it's a her... it could be a he or a they! or anything really) eta: obviously we see Steve and Peggy dancing -- it still doesn't tell us more than that.
~ We know Steve took a shield from some timeline that presumably didn't need it, so he could give it to Sam <3
Things we don't know:
~ We don't know how Steve blew past his "timestamp." My current theory is he removed the pym particles from his suit. Since we know Scott tells Steve and Tony they can't return without it
~ We don't know how Steve gets on that bench. I had assumed he lived out his life until time caught up with him, but he's in an alternate time line from the OG6 one so that can't be the case, not entirely at least. He must have returned to his timeline some time prior to that moment, and then snuck onto the bench. It could have been any moment, really, since (if everything above on this list is correct) we know there can be any number of Steve Rogers existing in 2023 simultaneously.
~ We don't know if Gamora sticks around in 2023 or not.... I'm gonna assume they're keeping the character for GotG movies, but Quill may have to work hard to convince her to date him again because the Gamora that knew him died. Good luck, buddy
~ We don't know if Time Traveler Steve, and the quantum realm, gives him access to more than his timeline. Can he visit these alternate timelines? Why would he want to for other than fic writing purposes lol?
~ We don't know how much pym particles Steve has for his solo mission (although presumably he could get more!) A finite amount, I would assume
Brain melting time:
How did Steve get on that bench....
My current theory is that Steve Rogers on the bench is still "a man out of time," because he blew past his timestamp. Returning to that moment to give Sam the shield was his final mission. This means (I think, if I'm even remotely right) that he removed the pym particles from his suit in 2023. So he could have his dramatic moment on the bench, waiting for Sam, rather than popping onto the platform. And.... if that's the case.... is it still an alternate timeline?? It might not be. But it also might be. I mean.... that means that that whole scene on the bench is in an alternate timeline and not the actual OG6 present...maybe....*brain explodes*
