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hafitalx posting once again from tumblr.
This is probably full of unpopular opinions! So, you know, reader beware. If you need a hint, I liked it.
I seem to have a big disconnect with the majority of fandom, and that’s okay. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind. I love all the outrage over the handling of Natasha’s story in Endgame, though I only share like a minuscule part of it. Some of it has me scratching my head, much like how I am confused over the negative reactions to Steve’s story in Endgame. My answer to this is that clearly I have been watching a different set of movies than everyone else. Typical! And not surprising.
There is not one second of Natasha screen time in the entirety of the MCU, especially in Endgame since it’s currently front and center, that I do not love completely and unconditionally. That extends to the empty spaces in the MCU where she is felt but not seen. Yes, that means I loved Natasha/Bruce, though I love the after part of it more than the part in AOU, the awkwardness that followed. Yes, that also includes whatever cockamamie thing the writers/directors said about her re Endgame. I’m not wired to hate any part of Natasha’s story. And that includes the lack of a funeral. I am apparently very much alone in being relieved that there was no on screen funeral! A funeral would have made it so real. Not only am I glad I didn’t have to sit through that, I don’t think funeral = respect, but it’s okay, I can be alone in this. I don’t mind. No funeral means she’s still alive, in my mind. *shrug*
Mostly I intended this post to be about Nat and Clint and what happened on Vormir so I’ll get to that in a sec, but just yesterday I read no less than 5? 6? – I don’t know it was a lot – posts of people livid over Natasha’s treatment in Endgame, from her being “fridged” or “sacrificed” to the lack of funeral, and I’m like, ugh, should I be more angry? Why am I not angry? I am sad but not angry. (Tony voice: because turns out resentment is corrosive and I hate it. :D. Nicely said, Tony! Thank you.)
Okay, moving on.
1. My real time reaction to Natasha going over the cliff on Vormir was, “Oh. Okay, that’s a thing that happened.” In other words, Strong Denial. But, even so, it did not feel real to me and it still doesn’t feel real to me. Neither did Gamora’s death feel real. And the two are tied together. If Gamora is allowed to come back (in some version), then ergo Natasha is also allowed to come back (in some version.) My brain is stuck in “DOES NOT COMPUTE” when i see talk about Natasha as being permanently dead. And for the record, I do not need it to be realized on screen (almost rather it wasn’t, tbh). Just the very fact that 2014 Gamora exists/existed in 2023 tells me all I need to know.
1.a The other reason why the two Soul stone deaths are linked in my mind is that they mirror each other. I get all the outrage over both scenes, I really do, but there’s symmetry there, and how both death scenes echo each other – with their similarities and their glaring differences.
2. I also love a good death scene. I think it’s the theatre kid in me, and I do tend to view movies like plays. Death scenes, when done well, are great! They’re so dramatic! It’s the writing that matters to me. The death has to be earned, or else I get bored. I mean, I was gutted, totally devastated, in Infinity War when Thanos killed both Loki and Heimdall, and jeez it was like in the first 2 minutes. Heimdall’s death in particular upset me because it felt far more permanent than the others in the MCU, including now Natasha’s. But I also totally loved it. As I loved Tony’s death. And ultimately loved Natasha’s, too. None of these felt gratuitous to me. ymmv.
3. Natasha is one of the original Avengers. She was the only woman. But, she was equal among them. I will argue with anyone who says otherwise. It’s not about screen time, or how much of the MCU was focused on her, imo, or who is/was the strongest Avenger or whether she was enhanced or not. Those are things none of us can control. She was/is an Avenger. She is on equal footing with all of them. To say otherwise is not only not accurate, it is also gross and I reject it. Would any of the other OG Avengers have chosen differently if faced with the same Soul Stone dilemma? All of them would have stepped up and said it should be me. Or whatever it takes to get the job done. Would any of the new Avengers have chosen different? Who among them would be like, “nah, it’s okay, you take this one? You can sacrifice yourself, go for it.” None of them. I mean, there is a question of whether the fall would have killed Bruce, so if it had been him and someone else on Vormir, that would have been interesting and something I’m very glad didn’t happen, but let’s say the fall could kill him. Who would have balked at it? None of them. Not a single one. Did she have to die? No. I would have loved the scene just as much if it had been Clint who jumped and Natasha who was left, because he is also an Avenger doing what he was meant to do, which is save the universe. And maybe it should have been Clint. I won’t argue with that because Nat and Clint are the same at that moment. It could have been either one of them – visually, I know we don’t need another dead female character broken at the bottom of a cliff, so I get that. But I cannot hold one higher than the other, because Natasha is female and the others are male, or because she doesn’t have a wife and kids and he does. If we say he should have been the one instead of her, it’s just as terrible in my mind to say she should have been the one instead of him. Neither is right. There’s no “should have been” here. She is an Avenger. That’s her job as much as it is Clint’s job, and before Scott came along with his miracle hero rat, she was the only one still doing her job. This is what that one person meant who said “don’t take this away from her.” It sucks that it was her, but she wasn’t dragged to that cliff’s edge like Gamora. She chose to jump. That makes a difference. She had as much right to that choice as the others had, and she beat Clint to it – to say otherwise is to mark her as lesser than they are, like she’s not a real Avenger because she’s a woman. I know that’s not what people are saying, but that’s what it sound like to me. Others are mad that she died because they read it as the movie saying she is disposable, while I see it as her being equal to the others. Total disconnect. She is an Avenger, just like he is, like they all are.
4. This is a theme throughout the movie. The point isn’t that she died for Clint or for Clint’s family or even for the rest of the universe. The point is that she chose to die for them. This is also exemplified by Thor, Steve, and Tony when they all walk together to face Thanos, and Bruce taking the gauntlet and snapping his fingers despite what it would do to him – the difference between being dragged into the arena vs. standing tall and walking into the arena.
5. I mean I get it. She was the only woman, so to “throw” the only woman over the edge can and does read as fridging, especially if you read it as her sacrificing herself for a man (Clint). If she had had no choice, I would agree with that. But she’s actually the lead here. What is gross about fridging imo (and it’s gross for both sides of the equation, for the lead and the character that is fridged) is how a character’s (of any gender) sole purpose in the story is a) only to further the lead/hero/antihero/villain’s role and b) their death acts as a catalyst to propel the lead into action. Natasha IS the lead. She is one of the leads. She is saving the universe, with the rest of them. The universe (or Nick and Maria, and Laura and the kids, however you want to see it) were fridged/dusted to propel Natasha (and the other Avengers left standing after the snap) into action. It’s their deaths that motivate her and drive her choices. So I disagree with those that say it’s not her hero moment, though I do agree it didn’t need to be her.
6. What I also find fascinating in all this is that the Soul Stone is made for fridging people. That appears to be its purpose. You can’t get the soul stone unless you sacrifice someone you love. Why would you want the stone in the first place if it wasn’t something you felt you needed above all other things? I mean, who would do that? Who is like, okay, I’m going to kill the person I love for the stone. Totally easy. What kind of person is that? This is brilliant actually, imo, although i wonder if anyone else would agree with me. Because, like greek tragedy, it sets up Thanos’s greatest flaw. I mean, karma’s a bitch. The soul stone is supposed to have wisdom. It sets up this impossible dilemma. You have to kill someone you love to take it. But to kill that person means you do not love them. That is not love. So you can’t take it. Or not really, in any case. Who would actually do that??? Only someone like Thanos, so deeply entrenched in their obsession that they don’t realize they’re being conned. He really believes he loved Gamora. He thinks he has a destiny that makes it okay to kill her, and he’s so convinced of it that he can take the stone. But he’s wrong. He has a destiny, but it’s not the destiny he thinks he has. And I honestly think this is why he failed. Because Gamora is right when she says this is not love. It’s not a true sacrifice. The sacrifice would be giving up his mad plan because he realized he loved his daughter too much to sacrifice her for the stone. There is no way what he does to her is love. He got the soul stone but he got it with death and so all he can do with it is make more death (though he thinks he’s fixing the universe). And it doesn’t stick. The Avengers get the stone with love and so all they do with it is restore those that were lost and eliminate the threat to those they love. Then, order is once again returned to the universe. The stones (i.e. fates) won. Greek tragedy.
All right, that’s my take on Natasha in Endgame. It sucked. But I also loved it. And one of the first things I’m going to do, whenever I finally get around to writing, is reverse it. :D
ASIDE: If Bucky were female in CA TFA, imo we would all be talking about him being a fridged character. He is actually literally in a refrigerator, but do people see it that way? Maybe there was discussion on this when CATWS was released? I wasn’t in the fandom proper then, didn’t get to be part of any discussions. I bet there was. Or everyone was just in love with Bucky from the get go, no one cared. :D Is it different because he’s male? Maybe it is! It’s less jarring that it’s a male character who is tortured for decades than a female character? I don’t think the character would have been as popular if he had been female. We all have our likes and dislikes, and what we want in slash may not be what we want in het pairings. Totally valid. And I do view him as fridged, I always have. I love Steve/Bucky, I’ve loved writing it and hope to write more again. But even when it’s revealed Bucky didn’t die when he fell from that train and instead became the Winter Soldier, his purpose in the MCU has been mainly to propel Steve Rogers’s story going forward. This isn’t a bad thing, or I don’t view it as a bad thing, but I also don’t see Stucky on screen as much as others do. It’s definitely a more platonic relationship I see than a slashy one. Hopefully, in the new TV show, Bucky gets to have his own journey, and will have to figure out who he is without Steve. In general, slash or otherwise, IMO Bucky not having Steve around is a good thing. ymmv, obviously.
This is probably full of unpopular opinions! So, you know, reader beware. If you need a hint, I liked it.
I seem to have a big disconnect with the majority of fandom, and that’s okay. I’m not here to change anyone’s mind. I love all the outrage over the handling of Natasha’s story in Endgame, though I only share like a minuscule part of it. Some of it has me scratching my head, much like how I am confused over the negative reactions to Steve’s story in Endgame. My answer to this is that clearly I have been watching a different set of movies than everyone else. Typical! And not surprising.
There is not one second of Natasha screen time in the entirety of the MCU, especially in Endgame since it’s currently front and center, that I do not love completely and unconditionally. That extends to the empty spaces in the MCU where she is felt but not seen. Yes, that means I loved Natasha/Bruce, though I love the after part of it more than the part in AOU, the awkwardness that followed. Yes, that also includes whatever cockamamie thing the writers/directors said about her re Endgame. I’m not wired to hate any part of Natasha’s story. And that includes the lack of a funeral. I am apparently very much alone in being relieved that there was no on screen funeral! A funeral would have made it so real. Not only am I glad I didn’t have to sit through that, I don’t think funeral = respect, but it’s okay, I can be alone in this. I don’t mind. No funeral means she’s still alive, in my mind. *shrug*
Mostly I intended this post to be about Nat and Clint and what happened on Vormir so I’ll get to that in a sec, but just yesterday I read no less than 5? 6? – I don’t know it was a lot – posts of people livid over Natasha’s treatment in Endgame, from her being “fridged” or “sacrificed” to the lack of funeral, and I’m like, ugh, should I be more angry? Why am I not angry? I am sad but not angry. (Tony voice: because turns out resentment is corrosive and I hate it. :D. Nicely said, Tony! Thank you.)
Okay, moving on.
1. My real time reaction to Natasha going over the cliff on Vormir was, “Oh. Okay, that’s a thing that happened.” In other words, Strong Denial. But, even so, it did not feel real to me and it still doesn’t feel real to me. Neither did Gamora’s death feel real. And the two are tied together. If Gamora is allowed to come back (in some version), then ergo Natasha is also allowed to come back (in some version.) My brain is stuck in “DOES NOT COMPUTE” when i see talk about Natasha as being permanently dead. And for the record, I do not need it to be realized on screen (almost rather it wasn’t, tbh). Just the very fact that 2014 Gamora exists/existed in 2023 tells me all I need to know.
1.a The other reason why the two Soul stone deaths are linked in my mind is that they mirror each other. I get all the outrage over both scenes, I really do, but there’s symmetry there, and how both death scenes echo each other – with their similarities and their glaring differences.
2. I also love a good death scene. I think it’s the theatre kid in me, and I do tend to view movies like plays. Death scenes, when done well, are great! They’re so dramatic! It’s the writing that matters to me. The death has to be earned, or else I get bored. I mean, I was gutted, totally devastated, in Infinity War when Thanos killed both Loki and Heimdall, and jeez it was like in the first 2 minutes. Heimdall’s death in particular upset me because it felt far more permanent than the others in the MCU, including now Natasha’s. But I also totally loved it. As I loved Tony’s death. And ultimately loved Natasha’s, too. None of these felt gratuitous to me. ymmv.
3. Natasha is one of the original Avengers. She was the only woman. But, she was equal among them. I will argue with anyone who says otherwise. It’s not about screen time, or how much of the MCU was focused on her, imo, or who is/was the strongest Avenger or whether she was enhanced or not. Those are things none of us can control. She was/is an Avenger. She is on equal footing with all of them. To say otherwise is not only not accurate, it is also gross and I reject it. Would any of the other OG Avengers have chosen differently if faced with the same Soul Stone dilemma? All of them would have stepped up and said it should be me. Or whatever it takes to get the job done. Would any of the new Avengers have chosen different? Who among them would be like, “nah, it’s okay, you take this one? You can sacrifice yourself, go for it.” None of them. I mean, there is a question of whether the fall would have killed Bruce, so if it had been him and someone else on Vormir, that would have been interesting and something I’m very glad didn’t happen, but let’s say the fall could kill him. Who would have balked at it? None of them. Not a single one. Did she have to die? No. I would have loved the scene just as much if it had been Clint who jumped and Natasha who was left, because he is also an Avenger doing what he was meant to do, which is save the universe. And maybe it should have been Clint. I won’t argue with that because Nat and Clint are the same at that moment. It could have been either one of them – visually, I know we don’t need another dead female character broken at the bottom of a cliff, so I get that. But I cannot hold one higher than the other, because Natasha is female and the others are male, or because she doesn’t have a wife and kids and he does. If we say he should have been the one instead of her, it’s just as terrible in my mind to say she should have been the one instead of him. Neither is right. There’s no “should have been” here. She is an Avenger. That’s her job as much as it is Clint’s job, and before Scott came along with his miracle hero rat, she was the only one still doing her job. This is what that one person meant who said “don’t take this away from her.” It sucks that it was her, but she wasn’t dragged to that cliff’s edge like Gamora. She chose to jump. That makes a difference. She had as much right to that choice as the others had, and she beat Clint to it – to say otherwise is to mark her as lesser than they are, like she’s not a real Avenger because she’s a woman. I know that’s not what people are saying, but that’s what it sound like to me. Others are mad that she died because they read it as the movie saying she is disposable, while I see it as her being equal to the others. Total disconnect. She is an Avenger, just like he is, like they all are.
4. This is a theme throughout the movie. The point isn’t that she died for Clint or for Clint’s family or even for the rest of the universe. The point is that she chose to die for them. This is also exemplified by Thor, Steve, and Tony when they all walk together to face Thanos, and Bruce taking the gauntlet and snapping his fingers despite what it would do to him – the difference between being dragged into the arena vs. standing tall and walking into the arena.
5. I mean I get it. She was the only woman, so to “throw” the only woman over the edge can and does read as fridging, especially if you read it as her sacrificing herself for a man (Clint). If she had had no choice, I would agree with that. But she’s actually the lead here. What is gross about fridging imo (and it’s gross for both sides of the equation, for the lead and the character that is fridged) is how a character’s (of any gender) sole purpose in the story is a) only to further the lead/hero/antihero/villain’s role and b) their death acts as a catalyst to propel the lead into action. Natasha IS the lead. She is one of the leads. She is saving the universe, with the rest of them. The universe (or Nick and Maria, and Laura and the kids, however you want to see it) were fridged/dusted to propel Natasha (and the other Avengers left standing after the snap) into action. It’s their deaths that motivate her and drive her choices. So I disagree with those that say it’s not her hero moment, though I do agree it didn’t need to be her.
6. What I also find fascinating in all this is that the Soul Stone is made for fridging people. That appears to be its purpose. You can’t get the soul stone unless you sacrifice someone you love. Why would you want the stone in the first place if it wasn’t something you felt you needed above all other things? I mean, who would do that? Who is like, okay, I’m going to kill the person I love for the stone. Totally easy. What kind of person is that? This is brilliant actually, imo, although i wonder if anyone else would agree with me. Because, like greek tragedy, it sets up Thanos’s greatest flaw. I mean, karma’s a bitch. The soul stone is supposed to have wisdom. It sets up this impossible dilemma. You have to kill someone you love to take it. But to kill that person means you do not love them. That is not love. So you can’t take it. Or not really, in any case. Who would actually do that??? Only someone like Thanos, so deeply entrenched in their obsession that they don’t realize they’re being conned. He really believes he loved Gamora. He thinks he has a destiny that makes it okay to kill her, and he’s so convinced of it that he can take the stone. But he’s wrong. He has a destiny, but it’s not the destiny he thinks he has. And I honestly think this is why he failed. Because Gamora is right when she says this is not love. It’s not a true sacrifice. The sacrifice would be giving up his mad plan because he realized he loved his daughter too much to sacrifice her for the stone. There is no way what he does to her is love. He got the soul stone but he got it with death and so all he can do with it is make more death (though he thinks he’s fixing the universe). And it doesn’t stick. The Avengers get the stone with love and so all they do with it is restore those that were lost and eliminate the threat to those they love. Then, order is once again returned to the universe. The stones (i.e. fates) won. Greek tragedy.
All right, that’s my take on Natasha in Endgame. It sucked. But I also loved it. And one of the first things I’m going to do, whenever I finally get around to writing, is reverse it. :D
ASIDE: If Bucky were female in CA TFA, imo we would all be talking about him being a fridged character. He is actually literally in a refrigerator, but do people see it that way? Maybe there was discussion on this when CATWS was released? I wasn’t in the fandom proper then, didn’t get to be part of any discussions. I bet there was. Or everyone was just in love with Bucky from the get go, no one cared. :D Is it different because he’s male? Maybe it is! It’s less jarring that it’s a male character who is tortured for decades than a female character? I don’t think the character would have been as popular if he had been female. We all have our likes and dislikes, and what we want in slash may not be what we want in het pairings. Totally valid. And I do view him as fridged, I always have. I love Steve/Bucky, I’ve loved writing it and hope to write more again. But even when it’s revealed Bucky didn’t die when he fell from that train and instead became the Winter Soldier, his purpose in the MCU has been mainly to propel Steve Rogers’s story going forward. This isn’t a bad thing, or I don’t view it as a bad thing, but I also don’t see Stucky on screen as much as others do. It’s definitely a more platonic relationship I see than a slashy one. Hopefully, in the new TV show, Bucky gets to have his own journey, and will have to figure out who he is without Steve. In general, slash or otherwise, IMO Bucky not having Steve around is a good thing. ymmv, obviously.
